Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales Y Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes The Enterprise and Business Committee
Dydd Iau, 10 Ionawr 2013 Thursday, 10 January 2013
Cynnwys Contents Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions Ymchwiliad i Drafnidiaeth Gyhoeddus Integredig—Sesiwn dystiolaeth Inquiry into Integrated Public Transport—Evidence session
Cofnodir y trafodion hyn yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. These proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included.
Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance
Byron Davies	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
Yr Arglwydd/Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Alun Ffred Jones	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Eluned Parrott	Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats
Nick Ramsay	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Welsh Conservatives (Committee Chair)
David Rees	Llafur Labour
Kenneth Skates	Llafur Labour
Joyce Watson	Llafur Labour
Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance
Dylan Bowen	Rheolwr Materion Cyhoeddus, Network Rail Public Affairs Manager, Network Rail
Mark Langman	Rheolwr Gyfarwyddwr Llwybr Cymru, Network Rail Wales Route Managing Director, Network Rail
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Ffion Emyr Bourton	Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk
Chloe Davies	Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk
Andrew Minnis	Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service
Siân Phipps	Clerc Clerk
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9.29 a.m. The meeting began at 9.29 a.m.
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions
[1] Nick Ramsay: I welcome Members, witnesses and any members of the public to today’s meeting of the Enterprise and Business Committee. Happy new year. This meeting is bilingual, and headphones can be used for simultaneous translation from Welsh to English on channel 1 or for amplification on channel 0. The meeting is being broadcast and a transcript of the proceedings will be published. I ask Members to turn off their mobile phones, and I remind Members and witnesses that there is no need to touch the microphones; they will hopefully operate automatically. In the event of a fire alarm, people should follow directions from the ushers. We have received two apologies this morning from Keith Davies and Julie James. There are no substitutions.
9.30 a.m.
Ymchwiliad i Drafnidiaeth Gyhoeddus Integredig—Sesiwn dystiolaeth Inquiry into Integrated Public Transport—Evidence session
[2] Nick Ramsay: I welcome our two witnesses and I thank them for agreeing to come along to answer our questions today. Would you like to give your name and position for the record?
[3] Mr Langman: Good morning, everyone. I am Mark Langman, route managing director for Network Rail in Wales.
[4] Mr Bowen: Good morning and a happy new year. I am Dylan Bowen, public affairs manager for Network Rail in Wales.
[5] Nick Ramsay: I should say that, as part of our inquiry, we visited the Canton control centre. Thank you, Mark Langman, for organising that visit, which was really helpful. We have quite a few questions, so I suggest that we get straight into those. The first question is from Dafydd Elis-Thomas.
[6] Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Mae’n dda iawn gennyf weld Mark a Dylan unwaith eto. Rwyf am gychwyn gyda’r ymweliad a gawsom i’ch swyddfeydd a’ch canolfan newydd. Rydych wedi bod yn gweithredu llwybr Cymru fel datganoli o fewn Network Rail ers dros flwyddyn. Wrth gwrs, mae cadeirydd newydd eich cwmni, etholwr disglair o Ddwyfor Meirionydd, Richard Parry-Jones, yn ei le, ac rwy’n gwybod am ei sgiliau ef mewn sawl maes trafnidiaeth. A yw’r drefn newydd o ddatganoli o fewn Network Rail bellach wedi setlo?		Lord Elis-Thomas: I am very pleased to see Mark and Dylan once again. I will start by discussing our visit to your offices and new centre. You have been implementing the Wales route as part of devolution within Network Rail for over a year. Of course, the new chair of your company, an excellent constituent from Dwyfor Meirionydd, Richard Parry-Jones, is in situ, and I am aware of his skills in many areas of transport. Has the new system of devolution within Network Rail settled down now?
[7] Mr Langman: Yes, it has. We went live just over a year ago—about 15 months ago—and I think that everyone will remember the fuss in the media and the big circus that there was around the devolution of the Wales route and the bringing back of powers over the rail network to Cardiff for the first time since the railways were built. That was tremendously successful in itself and, since then, we have seen quite a quick settling down of the route. At our headquarters office in Cardiff, our asset management teams, our maintenance teams and operation teams have been merged into a single organisation and we have been able to do cluster planning. That has been demonstrated through the first-time publication on Tuesday, which Members will hopefully have had a chance to look at, of a single Wales route plan for control period 5 from 2014 to 2019. I have a copy here, but it is also on our public website and we would be happy to circulate that. Hopefully, you have had a chance to have a look at it.
[8] I believe that that just would not have happened before. In previous control periods, Wales was always talked about in the context of the wider Great Western plans that were biased towards the English end of the route because it was based in Swindon, or for north Wales towards Birmingham and Manchester. So, for the first time, we have been able to have a close look, provide for the needs of and listen to the views of our stakeholders, members, transport consortia and the Welsh Government, and integrate them into our plan.
[9] We hope that we have delivered a proposed plan for 2014-19 that everyone can get excited about. Inclusive in that is the first time that we have been able to publish our modernisation plan—something that has never been looked at before in Wales. It is a single plan for Wales to modernise the network to 2025, and we are doing that in 10 chunks of work. The first two chunks are the north Wales coast and the line between Newport and Shrewsbury—the Marches route—in 2015 and 2017 respectively. That is not just about re-signalling and modernising; it is about looking at the track, line speeds, tunnels, stations and such like. So, I think that the benefits of the Wales route are there. We have worked really hard to make it work, and I think that it would be inconceivable now to not imagine a Wales route.
[10] Mr Bowen: What I have noticed over the past 12 or 13 months is that there is far more focus and engagement with Welsh stakeholders. Whereas that engagement happened in the past—from my point of view and that of others—with stakeholders, local authorities and MPs across the border, we are far more focused and engaged on those stakeholders in Wales now.
[11] Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Mae gennym ddiddordeb arbennig yn effaith y newidiadau hyn ar drafnidiaeth integredig. Sut mae eich perthynas gyda’r consortia trafnidiaeth yn gweithredu? A allem feddwl am gyfundrefn fwy effeithlon yng Nghymru na’r consortia sydd gyda ni? Yn gysylltiol â hynny, beth yw eich perthynas â llywodraeth leol a Gweinidogion Cymru? Tra fy mod yn holi, gofynnaf am un mater arall cysylltiol, sef sut mae’r buddsoddi sy’n cael ei rannu rhwng adran drafnidiaeth Llywodraeth Cymru a’r cwmni yn gweithio’n ymarferol; pwy sydd, mewn gwirionedd, yn penderfynu’r blaenoriaethau?		Lord Elis-Thomas: We have a particular interest in the impact of these changes on integrated transport. How does your relationship with the transport consortia operate?  Could we think of a more effective system in Wales than the consortia that we currently have? Related to that, what is your relationship with local government and Welsh Ministers? Whilst I am asking, I will ask about one other linked issue, namely how does the investment that is shared between the transport department of Welsh Government and the company work in practice; who, in reality, decides on priorities?

[12] Mr Langman: I alluded to the fact that devolution and the creation of the Wales route has enabled us to get much closer to stakeholders, and that applies equally to the Welsh Government and its transport team at Cathays park and the local transport consortia and the local authorities. We must not forget that we serve that important north-south route that runs through Herefordshire and Shropshire, so it is vital that we communicate with those areas. We have really good relationships with them and we meet with them regularly and involve them in the planning. For instance, with the electrification of the Valleys lines, the South East Wales Transport Alliance and the South West Wales Integrated Transport Consortium are heavily involved in our planning group to make sure that we get people’s opinions and views on what is going to happen with the electrification and how we do it. They are integrated into that early planning, rather than finding out what we are doing at the end of the process, which is not helpful to anybody.
[13] Mr Bowen: What we also did was give them early sight of our plans, so that if they have any schemes that they want to take forward, they can align them with our projects as well. So, you get far more benefit.
[14] Mr Langman: Building on that, the benefit of the modernisation plan that we have published now—with fixed dates, it takes us up to 2025 to modernise the railway in Wales in chunks—is that it now enables those regional transport consortia, the Welsh Government and anybody else that might want to fund additional enhancements to see where we are working already, in advance, and to plan around that and benefit from the efficiencies of the work that we are already doing.
[15] Lord Elis-Thomas: I will ask one cheeky supplementary. Does the Department for Transport understand what you are doing in terms of devolution?
[16] Mr Langman: Very much so.
[17] Lord Elis-Thomas: Are you sure?
[18] Mr Langman: I think so. It is certainly not holding us back; I do not feel that it is holding us back here. The relationship between the DfT and the Welsh Government, as far as I am aware, is not hindering what we do. I think that it works quite collaboratively to get the output of the Valleys lines electrification for CP5 for instance.
[19] Nick Ramsay: That was a very useful cheeky supplementary, Dafydd.
[20] Lord Elis-Thomas: I do try.
[21] Nick Ramsay: Well done. I want to ask you, Mark Langman and Dylan, how you feel about the establishment of joint transport authorities. Do you think that the establishment of authorities with executive responsibility for regional transport policy would simplify the rail planning process?
[22] Mr Langman: There is a history of transport planning authorities, more so in England and Scotland with the passenger transport executives, and they have brought benefits in urban areas—there is no doubt about that. So, they bring an aligned and strategic approach across all transport modes within their area. They can promote things like cross-mode ticketing: West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive has single ticketing across its bus and rail network. Of course, they can also borrow money, which is quite important, because whatever we do with our own transport infrastructure, someone has to pay for it or the money has to be found from somewhere. There is certainly a history and some benefits that have been delivered from that. Whether that can be achieved under the current structure with the four regional transport consortia is up for debate with the Welsh Government and the transport consortia.
[23] Mr Bowen: A good example of a JTA is Centro in Birmingham. We work very closely with Centro and have worked quite closely with it around the plans to redevelop Birmingham New Street station. It has brought funding in to make that a much better scheme. I am aware of the arguments for the establishment of a JTA in Bristol. I know that Bristol looked quite closely at Birmingham and the advantages that it has of having that JTA, such as a better co-ordination of those cross-local-authority links. Again, as Mark said, they are able to bring in a lot more funding, whether it is through central Government grants, using council tax or through borrowing.
[24] Eluned Parrott: I will just ask a quick supplementary on the point of joint transport authorities and passenger transport executives. You will be aware that the Minister made a statement just before Christmas that addressed some of the integration points. To me, it started looking like moving towards joint transport authorities. Do you think that that statement is going to make things easier, and do you think that progressing further in that direction of travel would be useful in terms of integration of transport in Wales?
[25] Mr Langman: It would be particularly useful for us, and I talk from a selfish perspective as a representative of Network Rail, because it brings together all the people, organisations and ideas related to transport in various parts of Wales, particularly in south-east Wales, where most people live. Lots of people have lots of great ideas about what to do with the railway and with transport generally in south-east Wales, but many of those ideas are disparate and are from organisations reported through the media. So, it would be a real advantage to bring these things together into a single planning body.
[26] Eluned Parrott: Is it a JTA in all but name?
[27] Mr Langman: Potentially, it could be. You could argue that the transport consortia that we have at the moment—SEWTA, SWWITCH and Trafnidiaeth Canolbarth Cymru or TraCC and so on—could fulfil those needs under a different remit. However, I think that it is up for debate and we have not had any detailed debate with the Welsh Government on that.
[28] Nick Ramsay: Just for clarification, following on from Dafydd Elis-Thomas’s questions, do you think that the devolution of powers to the Welsh Government so that it can establish its own rail infrastructure priorities, rather than simply making additional priorities, would help transport integration?
[29] Mr Langman: Potentially. We have achieved a huge amount by devolving power within Network Rail to Cardiff and a lot of that was about creating the Wales route and then devolving power to it. So, we have achieved an enormous amount and the plan for CP5, when you have had the chance to have a good look at that, will demonstrate that. We would want to work with the Welsh Government and anyone else who is involved in that sort of decision to create something that would bring more investment into the railway. If that is what it would bring, then obviously we would be happy to work with it on that to make it happen quickly. More investment is a good thing, but I am also wary that more power and, therefore, the funding of the railway, if it were fully devolved to Wales, would mean that it would be up against things such as health and education.
[30] Byron Davies: I am interested in electrification and 2012 brought good news with the announcement of electrification down to Swansea. I am interested to hear your view on maximising electrification beyond Swansea and integrating the rail network in the very west of Wales into all this. I would be interested in what you have to say on that.
[31] Mr Langman: It is important that we ensure that we promote the benefits of electrification, not only to the people of south-east Wales and as far as Swansea, but to wider Wales and to the connected routes. So, I think that it does bring a benefit, Byron. Yes, admittedly, there will not be wires through Llanelli or Carmarthen, but there will be a much faster way to get to Swansea on cleaner, brighter trains with more seats, and a better connecting service out of Swansea, so that you will accelerate journeys to west Wales.
[32] You will be aware, because we have talked about this before, of the ongoing scheme at the Loughor viaduct, which is exciting and is coming close to fruition—at Easter, I am sure that there will be a lot of fanfare around that. We are also redoubling the line through Gowerton; the new platform is being built now, which you will have seen if you have been there recently. That is all coming together. That gives us the ability to run more trains. That is a constraint at the minute: there is a five-mile single-line section there that is a pinch point and we cannot run any more trains through there. In fact, to get trains through there as quickly as we can, a lot of them do not stop at Gowerton for the simple reason that it is difficult to get them through that single-line section. So, that bottleneck will be unblocked just after Easter and we will then have the ability to run more trains and more of them will be able to stop at Gowerton, which will provide more commuting opportunities from Gowerton to Swansea, and will make it more attractive to people than driving.  So, we are opening up west Wales and electrification helps people to get to Cardiff and London quicker.
[33] Byron Davies: How will someone living down in Pembroke, for example, benefit from all of this in five years’ time in terms of times?
[34] Mr Langman: Potentially, they could have a more frequent service. That timetable could be cast better to provide better commuting opportunities, with arrival times into Swansea and Cardiff that are more suitable for working hours. At the moment, we are constrained by that single line, so we have to try to fit things in and that does not necessarily work terribly well for commuting hours.
[35] We are doing many things: we are undertaking track renewals in CP5 from 2014 to 2019, which gives us the potential for line-speed improvements. In the modernisation plan, we have committed a date, which off the top of my head—and I will check this shortly—is 2023 for the complete modernisation of the west Wales network and the re-signalling into the new control centre. When we do that re-signalling work, we look at not only the signalling, but at the spacing of the signals with potential line-speed improvements and what the capability of the track is, as well as what the capability of the trains that run over that track are, so that we get the maximum out of the assets that we have. We swept to the maximum everything that we had and squeezed the network to get the maximum capability out of it.
9.45 a.m.
[36] Byron Davies: Would you agree with me that, certainly on electrification down to Swansea—we have discussed this before, and I would be interested to hear your view in an open forum—everything gets to Swansea and stops there, and then it is all change for west Wales? What can we do about that?
[37] Mr Langman: You have to make that connection seamless. So, a well-timed cross-platform connection at Swansea is really important. A lot of that works quite well today. However, I think it is inevitable that, with an electrified railway, a change of trains is going to be needed at Swansea.
[38] Byron Davies: A what, sorry?
[39] Mr Langman: A change of trains will be needed at Swansea with an electrified railway.
[40] Byron Davies: Is there no way around that?
[41] Mr Langman: Not really.
[42] Byron Davies: I have just one more point that I would like to raise with you. In your submission on the long-term planning process, one of the bullet points assesses gaps between existing capacity and future demand. Quite a few people have come to me with various ideas about opening stations on what would be the main-line route, I suppose, from the Severn tunnel down. How do you see that coming, perhaps in the next control period? Is there the capacity for that? One that people talk about, for example, is Magor.
[43] Mr Langman: For the next control period, our plan is laid out, the announcements have been made and our focus is on the modernisation plan that I talked about, the electrifications and, for me as an organisation, reducing my costs, because my costs translate back into taxpayer subsidy and fares. So, that is a real priority for me in CP5.
[44] While there is not currently a plan for something like Magor station, we have laid out our long-term planning strategy, which you have taken that bullet point from, and that is to start looking now at where future demand for the railway will come from, where commuting demand is, where new houses are being built under local authorities’ local development plans, where the jobs are going to be, such as at the enterprise zone in Cardiff, for instance, and where future demands are going to come from for between 10 years and 30 years from today. So, we look at that demand, we then look at the gaps in the rail network that need to be filled to address that demand and we come up with a suite of solutions that we can offer to funders, the Welsh Government, the UK Government and local transport consortia to potentially fund for the period of CP6, which will be 2019 to 2024. That is where Magor station, for instance, would be considered in terms of the demand that might be generated from it. It is about making the best use of the network and getting a prioritised list of interventions to address future demand.
[45] Alun Ffred Jones: Bore da. Rydych wedi ateb rhan o’r cwestiwn yr oeddwn am ei ofyn, rwy’n credu. Rwyf eisiau cyfeirio at gynllunio a holi i ba raddau y mae cynllunio rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd wedi ei gydlynu â pholisïau cynllunio, strategaethau economaidd ac anghenion teithwyr. Cychwynnaf felly gyda chwestiwn syml iawn. O ran y cynlluniau datblygu lleol a ddatbyglir gan bob un awdurdod lleol, i ba raddau y mae Network Rail yn rhan o’r broses honno, os o gwbl?	Alun Ffred Jones: Good morning. You have answered the question I was going to ask in part, I think. I want to refer to planning and ask to what extent rail network planning is co-ordinated with planning policies, economic strategies and the needs of passengers. I will therefore start with a very simple question. With regard to the local development plans that are developed by each and every local authority, to what extent does Network Rail participate in that process, if at all?
[46] Mr Langman: We do get consulted on local development plans; we actually have a town planning department/function—call it what you will—that responds to all of those consultations. Of course, that helps us to feed information into the long-term planning process that I have described. So, it is important that we are consulted on those things.
[47] Similarly, through the creation of the Wales route and devolution, media coverage and the relationships that we have built up with stakeholders, transport consortia et cetera have helped with raising the profile of Network Rail, so that we are now more integrated in discussions about the future, whether that is about enterprise zones, building houses, new jobs or whatever it may be. So, I am a board member of the Cardiff enterprise zone; I do not think that that would have happened in the days before the Wales route. That allows me to bring the benefits of the railway to the enterprise zone and to promote them as a reason why a business might want to locate in central Cardiff.
[48] Alun Ffred Jones: Mae hynny’n dda iawn i’w glywed, a gallaf ddeall pam y mae’r pwyslais ar Gaerdydd a’r ardaloedd o’i chwmpas. I ba raddau y mae Network Rail yn rhan o ddatblygiadau, neu’n ymwybodol ohonynt, ym maes addysg, dyweder, ar ffurf campws newydd neu ysgol integredig newydd, neu ysbyty newydd? I ba raddau yr ydych yn cymryd rhan mewn unrhyw broses gynllunio? Yn amlwg, os oes eisiau symud pobl—gweithwyr, myfyrwyr neu bwy bynnag—gallai datblygiad yr ydych chi’n gyfrifol amdano fod yn bwysig iawn i sicrhau llwyddiant ac nad yw pobl yn gorfod defnyddio ceir.	Alun Ffred Jones: It is very good to hear that, and I can understand the emphasis on Cardiff and its environs. To what extent is Network Rail a part of, or aware of, developments in the field of education, say, in the form of a new campus or a new integrated school, or perhaps a new hospital? To what extent do you participate in any planning process? Clearly, if we need to move people—workers, students or whoever—a development that you are responsible for could be very important to ensuring success and that people do not have to use cars.
[49] Mr Langman: I agree completely. The long-term planning process that I described is absolutely the reason why we are getting that into the public domain now and asking anyone who has an interest to come on to those groups and to help to identify future demands, whether that is around building new hospitals, housing estates or education facilities. We want to be there, making sure that we understand what that future demand will be so that we can address it and get on the front foot, because the reality is that we are still catching up. Even in our CP5 plan, a lot is about catching up with the reality of what the railway is today. We have had a massive growth in passenger numbers and we are still trying to keep up with that. The long-term planning process starts to enable us to get on the front foot, by looking at where developments and demand will come from, so we can start getting interventions on the ground before the demand arises.
[50] Alun Ffred Jones: Gwnaf eich pwyso ychydig. Rwy’n gwerthfawrogi eich awydd fel Network Rail i fod yn rhan o’r prosesau hyn. Nid wyf yn siŵr a ydych yn rhan o’r prosesau ynteu ai dymuno bod yn rhan ohonynt yr ydych. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol bod rôl ffurfiol gan Newtork Rail yn y broses gynllunio hon. A allwch fod yn fwy eglur ynglŷn â’ch rhan? A ydych yn rhan o’r prosesau sydd yn ymwneud â chynlluniau newydd, datblygiadau economaidd neu dai?	Alun Ffred Jones: I will press you a little. I appreciate your desire as Network Rail to be a part of these processes. I am not sure whether you are a part of these processes or whether you wish to be a part of them. I am not aware that Network Rail has a formal role in this planning process. Can you provide more clarity about your part in this? Are you part of the processes relating to new schemes, economic developments or housing?
[51] Mr Langman: We are part of planning in enterprise zones, because we are aware of them and are involved in the discussions that I have talked about already. With regard to new campuses or hospitals, we would not necessarily be directly consulted upon them and we would not necessarily be directly aware of them unless we became aware of them through our inquiries or from what we see in the media. So, we are not directly involved in the planning of those sorts of things. We get consulted where a new hospital might be erected alongside a railway line, for instance, because we are required to be consulted about the planning for that sort of thing, but that is more about the protection of the railway and making sure that they do not pose a problem to us in terms of level crossings and suchlike with increased usage.
[52] Alun Ffred Jones: Mae gennyf un cwestiwn arall. Mae trydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd yn eithriadol o bwysig am wahanol resymau amlwg, ond mae dadleuon wedi cael eu gwneud bod angen ehangu’r rhwydwaith ac ailagor rhai o’r rheilffyrdd sydd wedi cael eu cau yn ystod y degawdau diwethaf er mwyn cysylltu pentrefi a datblygiadau gyda Chaerdydd a chanolfannau poblog eraill. Nid oes prosesau ffurfiol ar hyn o bryd yn ymwneud â hynny, ond a allwch edrych ar y posibiliadau hynny ac ai gyda Llywodraeth ganolog y byddech yn gwneud hynny, yr awdurdodau lleol neu bwy?	Alun Ffred Jones: I have one other question. The electrification of the Valleys lines is extremely important for various obvious reasons, but arguments have been made that we need to expand the network and reopen some of the lines that have been closed over the previous decades in order to link villages and developments with Cardiff and other densely populated areas. There are no formal processes at the moment relating to that, but can you look at those possibilities and would you do that with central Government, the local authorities or whom?
[53] Mr Langman: That is moving rapidly in the right direction; there is some good news around that. First, we know that there are benefits to electrification. We know that electrification builds on what we are already doing with the Valleys network, and there is evidence of that work now starting in central Cardiff. If you have been through Queen Street station recently, you will know that the two new platforms are being constructed as we speak. Our signalling programme is on track. The Vale of Glamorgan line is still on track to be switched on in a couple of weeks’ time—you will be pleased about that, Eluned, I know, and that will go into the new control centre. That will bring us the ability to run more trains. That is happening. That is £220 million of spend that will be in the ground by the end of 2015. That is great. So, we have provided the capacity to run more trains, which gives us a metro-style service. Lots of people talk about metro as something that we will not have, but we will have a metro-style service. It is then about how you brand that service and deal with the issues that you guys are looking at around integrated ticketing, cross-modal use and making sure that that wider transport network integrates into the new service provided, which is potentially possible through electrification and the work that we are doing around Cardiff.
[54] A wide stakeholder group is involved in the Valleys lines planning process for electrification, as I have described already. All the stakeholders and many other smaller stakeholders were involved in that group, so we are consulting and listening to what they have to say. That is not necessarily about building new lines. What we need to be wary of is that we have been funded to build the Valley lines electrification, and we need to make sure that we do not allow scope creep to cause some sort of delay to that electrification. We need to get it in on the ground.
[55] However, I was encouraged—and this is where I think that we are making good progress—that the Welsh Government has now set up a taskforce to look at the wider south-east Wales transport issues in the Cardiff city region, as it is known. The Welsh Government is looking at that in five separate work streams, which are around integrated ticketing and efficiencies on the network, spatial interventions and the assessment criteria on prioritisation, the governance for the group, which refers back to our earlier discussion about joint transport authorities and passenger transport executives, potentially, and the funding for additional parts, which may be line extensions, which we talked about, or re-openings and the commercial opportunities. It will also consider how we look at what we have today: what we are building, the measures in that network, and how it will be branded. Are we going to sweat that asset, or are we always thinking that there is always greener grass on the other side of the fence by wanting more and more, and are we really maximising what we are building now? So, are we are going to brand this with the trains and the buses branded as a single network, or are the bus networks going to be re-planned so that they feed into the new electrified rail services with a high frequency through central Cardiff? Will this become a truly integrated metro network with the resources that we are building and those that we have today?
[56] The long-term planning process then takes it that next step further, which is what we have been talking about. So, now that we have done all of that, have made everything the best that we can, have integrated as best as we can and have sweated our assets to the max, we cannot do anything more with this network and now need to start looking at line extensions and new stations. So, we are thinking in the longer term and also about how we are going to ensure benefit in the shorter term.
[57] Nick Ramsay: The next question is from David Rees.
[58] David Rees: Good morning. I will take you on from those questions in one sense. My question is in two parts, I suppose. First, looking at your current stations, how do we actually look at how we integrate those at the moment when you develop and modernise them with other forms of transport? You talk about south-east Wales but, of course, there are different areas across Wales. In terms of the linkages between bus stations and bus transport, or other forms of transport into the railway stations, what discussions do you have with those bodies—transport operators or local authorities, perhaps—to see how they fit together?
[59] Mr Langman: We do. On particular schemes we work very closely with them. A good example of that is the one that Byron was recognising, which is Swansea station, where we have pulled together not only us and the train operator, but local authorities, local stakeholders and bodies representing disabled groups, for instance, to make sure that we build the right thing. We are obliged, under many different standards and law in the Equality Act 2010, for instance, to make sure that we consider that when we are developing stations.
[60] The question of bus stations is a more interesting one because the railway network, by its very nature, is very fixed. The stations were built quite a long time ago. In the case of Swansea, for instance, it is not precisely in the city centre. Bus stations are more flexible; they are easier to move than the rail network. However, sometimes, that might not be the right answer. In the case of Swansea, which has a beautiful new bus station, although it is not near to the train station, we have worked with the local authority there to make sure that the bus stops outside the station are easy to access—they are right outside the door. We have departure screen information for buses inside the concourse at Swansea so that we can integrate and make the experience of transferring from train to bus as smooth as possible. Perhaps not such a good example is Newport, where we built a wonderful new station, but we do not have a bus station outside. However, we do have very good bus stops, similar to Swansea. There was an option for a new bus station there, but that was pulled at the last minute. Newport City Council took the view that the bus station was better where it was, and at the time of that decision the economic environment in general was much better and Newport was looking forward to a major redevelopment. Things have moved on since then. So, we do talk closely with the regional consortia and local authorities.
[61] David Rees: You mention in your paper that the electrification of Valleys lines will be a catalyst for more integrated transportation. I assume, therefore, that part of the discussions that you have been having is to look at how you can integrate the stations with other forms of transportation as a consequence of electrification.
[62] Mr Langman: Yes. It is really important for the planning group that I have talked about, and the stakeholder group, to make sure that they, from a very early stage, understand where we will be working, and the sequence of that work so that they can also plan interventions with the local bus network. Often, with stations in the Valleys, the road outside the station is a local authority-sponsored road. So, the authority might want to think, ‘We know that this is going arrive in 2018, 2019 or whenever. We are planning now to keep up with Network Rail to make sure that our integrated transport in our local authority area or local council area is aligned and that we build the facilities to make sure that there is a seamless transfer. We are also thinking about what the bus network needs to do to feed into that network’.
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[63] David Rees: Just as an aside to that, what about land? Obviously, there is the big question of accessibility to land and ownership of land, in one sense. Where do we stand with land alongside railway lines if we are to provide that type of service?
[64] Mr Langman: That does make it quite tricky, and we are talking about a very urban area with the Valleys network. Often, the landowner is not us. Often, it is the local authority, which helps, obviously—we have that good relationship with them—but we do work with all parties, and if it is the right decision we will work with the local authority to make sure that we can acquire the land, if it is needed, to provide that sort of integrated facility.
[65] David Rees: Do you have discussions therefore with the other transport providers? One of the big issues is accessibility, and disabled individuals might use your new, modern stations that provide those facilities, but if you do not have other public transport facilities outside your station that meet their needs, then they will find themselves stuck in your station.
[66] Mr Langman: I would say that that relationship is not quite as developed as those I have described with local authorities. It is about the co-ordination of those facilities rather than necessarily the individual bus companies. Under what umbrella are they operating? Who directs the strategy for an integrated transport network? How will the buses feed into that? There is no imperative for a private bus company to provide a bus to go to a railway station, so we need a holistic view as to how we get an integrated transport network. That includes accessibility and the types of vehicles that you provide, because an accessible station and accessible trains are not much use if you get off the train and cannot get up the step onto the bus.
[67] Mr Bowen: I think that what we are looking for there is a body with responsibility for co-ordinating transport across a region or an area, bringing together all those relevant parties, and we would be part of those discussions. I am not sure that it is for us to go out there and lead those discussions.
[68] David Rees: But at the moment there is no forum in which those discussions are taking place.
[69] Mr Langman: Not that we are involved in—not in that respect. We obviously invite lots of stakeholders onto our Valleys lines electrification planning and stakeholder groups.
[70] Mr Bowen: You have the train company as well. I cannot speak for the train company, and I am not sure what conversations it has with local bus companies.
[71] Mr Langman: It does have those conversations. We talk about integrated transport as if we have not got it, but actually there are some very good schemes that are already up and running. With Cardiff Bus, for instance, you can buy a train ticket from anywhere in the UK to Cardiff, and when you buy that train ticket, you can pay an extra £2 and have bus travel all day around Cardiff. That is very integrated. Even my own journey in this morning—I do not often catch the bus, but it was a particularly good example of integration this morning. I left home in Abergavenny at 7.20 a.m. and ran for my train because it arrived three minutes early at 7.35 a.m. I got off at Cardiff Central, came out of the back entrance, went straight over to the bus stop, the No. 6 was due, and I was straight on it; £1.70 and I was here, in an hour and 10 minutes from my front door. That is a great example of where we do have integrated transport working. There are many examples of that, and we must not forget that we have some really good integrated transport, but perhaps it is not publicised as well as it could be.
[72] Nick Ramsay: Perhaps you could prepare a little transport route plan for me to get here in the morning. There are a couple of supplementary questions. Ken Skates is first.
[73] Kenneth Skates: With regard to historic stations, there are still a lot of stations in Wales that are very attractive in their own right. Would you agree that we are not fully exploiting them as features of our environment? My own station in Ruabon is a very fine, nineteenth century sandstone station, and yet there is no waiting room there, so it is not really utilised for any purpose other than the railway; there are no shops or anything. Is there more scope for multi-use of historic stations and for promoting them more as features in their own right?
[74] Mr Langman: That is something that we are always keen to work on with both local community groups and local councils—to try to bring those buildings back into use. We have got a fantastic heritage in this railway, and if you saw me on the television on Tuesday, you would have heard me talk about the Victorian era and the fact that this is the biggest investment that we are about to commence. The heritage that we have, while it is fantastic, is also one of the biggest challenges for the future. Preserving the heritage while making it fit for modern standards—for instance, for the disabled access that we have been talking about—is quite a tricky thing to do, to balance them off. We have had some really good examples where we have brought disused buildings back into use—at Llandovery, for instance, on the central Wales line, we effectively donated a building at a peppercorn rent to a local community group, and that is now alive and kicking as a local café facility, which brings life back to the station itself. We are very keen to get those buildings back into use, and we will always talk to people and are quite generous in helping those plans and ideas come to fruition.
[75] Byron Davies: I just want to go back to [Inaudible.] I just find it astounding that there is no overall collective view on where we are going in terms of the integration of buses and trains, and that there is not an umbrella group that looks at that. I am interested in your view on integration. Wales is a very difficult area with very rural areas in north Wales, mid Wales and down west. What is your view on bringing people in on designated buses into transport hubs, such as Carmarthen, and other places along routes?
[76] Mr Langman: We are really supportive of that and we would encourage it to happen. If we could put more effort into encouraging and promoting the development of hubs with high-quality long-distance bus links—Carmarthen is a really good example, as are Lampeter and Aberystwyth—and get the funding into those hubs, they could be really quite good, and you would market it as a single through service from Swansea to Aberystwyth, or wherever.
[77] Byron Davies: Who would need to drive that?
[78] Mr Langman: The local transport consortia have a big role in that. In fairness to them, particularly down in south-west Wales, they are doing a huge amount. For instance, they are funding the redevelopment of Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock stations into proper integrated transport hubs with proper bus facilities outside the station. We have been working quite hard with those to make that happen, and it will come to fruition soon.
[79] Kenneth Skates: Passenger Focus identified a need for more real-time train times updates at all stations. Can this be achieved, and how?
[80] Mr Langman: Yes, there is some really good news on that. On the first day back at work last week, which, I think was last Wednesday, my route investment panel authorised the final stage of the roll-out of the electronic customer information screens or monitors—call them what you will—that you will have seen at stations recently, because some new ones have been going up. There are five that are more of a challenge that we do not have a plan for at the minute, and that is because they are so rural that there is no electrical supply to the station. That is something that we need to work on. So, it is real-time information. Virtually every station bar a few, as I have discussed already, on the central Wales line, which receives four trains in each direction a day, have those electronic screens. So, even now, you get full, up-to-date, live information as to what is happening with the network.
[81] We need to make sure that people are aware of the new technology that is available, and that you can go on your smartphone, enter the name of your local station and it will give you a rundown of the trains that are due, the times they are expected based on real-time updates from our systems, and even tell you what platform to go to. So, that information is very accessible.
[82] Kenneth Skates: There is also a need to integrate that with other modes of transport from stations, particularly buses. What plans do you have for achieving that?
[83] Mr Langman: The Swansea example that I gave is a really good one, where we look to integrate transport when we redevelop stations. There is a lot of work going on in this regard. You will be aware of the recently announced programme of station interventions that the Welsh Government is leading with European funding at Port Talbot and Rhyl stations. We will make sure that we factor in that integration to make sure that customers have access to information, just as in Swansea, where you step off the train, you walk through the ticket barrier and you are confronted by a large LED screen that tells you the time of bus departures and when they are due at the bus stop just outside the door.
[84] Nick Ramsay: I am a particular fan of that LED screen; I had my photograph taken in front of it as part of the inquiry. It is very impressive.
[85] Mr Langman: I am glad that I quoted it.
[86] Nick Ramsay: I am glad that you did as well. There are two supplementary questions. Please make them brief because we are in the last five minutes of this session.
[87] David Rees: You mentioned the Swansea example, but what involvement do bus operators or local authorities have in putting train information at the bus stations, so that the reverse information is available?
[88] Mr Langman: I do not have an answer to that. I am not sure that there is much discussion around that. It is an interesting point, because I do not think that there was any discussion about it in terms of the new bus station in Swansea; it just happened. We were not particularly aware of that development happening from a formal perspective, nor was there any formal communication as regards us putting our information about trains into their bus station. So, we have some way to go there.
[89] Eluned Parrott: Having the information there is fantastic for passengers, but the information being accurate and reliable is even more important in some ways once people come to rely on it. I am sure that many of us will have been at a railway station where the information board tells you that your train is due in five minutes. The five minutes comes and the five minutes goes, and then the train disappears from the board but it has not been through the station. It is more frustrating for that to happen than it is to not have the information in the first place. What can you do to improve the quality and the accuracy of the information that is being transmitted to passengers, particularly over changes to times and delays?
[90] Mr Langman: We are working on that and we are aware of it. It is all about technology and the kind of antiquated technology that we have in some places, which will be addressed through the modernisation plan. Some of the customer information systems that need upgrading in places are ancient, if I am honest. They provide information at very precise fixed points, some of which are very great distances apart. So, it may pass one fixed point to tell the information system it was on time and two minutes after that it may break down, and the system will not see that. So, it is up to us to make a manual intervention. You have been in our control centre in Cardiff and you have seen how we do that and how we communicate between Arriva Trains Wales and ourselves to get that information out to passengers as quickly as possible. I appreciate the frustration. Technology will solve it and the modernisation plan deals with it.
[91] David Rees: You have answered most of these already regarding access to stations, but when you are developing these new stations or modernising them, obviously public transport is one aspect, but the park and ride, cycle routes and so on is another. To what level are you getting involved with people like Sustrans to look at how you can put those things in place for all stations?
[92] Mr Langman: We talk to Sustrans quite often, not just in relation to accessibility at stations, but also with regard to the potential use of former railway routes that we own and converting those into cycle routes. So, we communicate quite often. It is very important that when we talk about integrated transport at stations, it is not just about buses; it is about cycle access and walking. There are various different transport modes and we need to bring all that under one umbrella and make sure that we cater for all of them. So, for instance, we make sure we provide high-quality parking for bicycles; there is a secure environment at Swansea, and at Abergavenny there are cages for bicycles, so we are very much about encouraging bicycle use to the stations and then changing to train mode.
[93] Lord Elis-Thomas: I want to ask you a bit more about the re-signalling between Newport and Shrewsbury. We have talked a bit about the re-signalling on the north Wales line. Could you describe to me how that potentially will improve the effectiveness and the potential integration of north-south travel?
[94] Mr Langman: I am glad that you asked that because I reviewed the scheme personally yesterday afternoon. We are in the very early, but advanced, stages of that process of planning what we are going to do. The ability we now have because we are devolved means that we can take a greater role in specifying what we want as the output and then allow the engineers to design the signalling to the output, rather than, as has been quite classic with railway history, the engineers building something that is all singing and dancing, but not necessarily delivering the outputs that we all wanted.
[95] Lord Elis-Thomas: It is worse with road, as you know.
[96] Mr Langman: I can imagine. So, what we are doing with that is not just saying, ‘Well, we’ve got 15 old Victorian signal boxes with levers and old-fashioned signals that need to be replaced and we will just do that’. What we are saying is, ‘Let’s look at this holistically; where will be space the signals? Where will we space them so that we can increase line speed so that we are futureproofing it, and how do we put that signalling in so that it is already immunised against potential future electrification and so that we don’t need to revisit it?’ So, it is about having those early thoughts in order to make sure that this is fit for the future. Alongside that, we have started a parallel process of looking at the capability of the track along that section so that there is the potential for line speed improvements and, if we package it up in the modernisation plan as I described, we get the maximum efficiency from working at a location at one time rather than the old-fashioned way of doing interventions to different aspects of our assets on a piecemeal basis.
[97] Lord Elis-Thomas: So my dream of an electrified Marcher line in my lifetime is coming nearer, is it?
[98] Mr Langman: We are certainly on the road to it. A case, as always, will need to be made for it, just as work is just starting on the case for the electrification of the north Wales line.
[99] Nick Ramsay: We only have two minutes left, but we have a couple more questions. Would it be possible for you to stay on for a further five minutes?
[100] Mr Langman: That is absolutely fine with me.
[101] Nick Ramsay: Okay, great.
[102] David Rees: This follows on in a sense, but it is also about other issues. You talk about planning, but what about your back-up situations and back-up scenarios? I will give you an example. Obviously, there was the flooding issue just before Christmas; the network signal box in Cardiff went down and there were major problems on the motorway and traffic chaos in south Wales. What mechanisms do you have in place to ensure that if something does go wrong with all these new systems, there is a back-up that allows the system to operate effectively?
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[103] Mr Langman: That is really important. For example, from a signalling perspective, that is what will generally bring us to a standstill. The reality is that when it breaks, it does so because it is old, mechanical and there is a lot of it. So, it breaks and it costs us a lot to keep it going. However, with the future signalling schemes, we ensure that not only are they powered from the grid, but that we have our own back-up power so that if there is some sort of failure from the grid, that will kick in and keep the signalling going. Furthermore, we are putting functionality into the new signalling that enables us to divert trains on to either of the two lines. Historically, there are two tracks and you run one train in one direction and the other train in another direction, but for all of these new schemes that we are discussing, including those for Shrewsbury and the north Wales coast, we are looking at what we call ‘bi-directional signalling’, so that you can run trains over both tracks in either direction. So, if we get a problem on one track with a flood, for example, we can run trains in both directions; admittedly at a reduced frequency on the other track, but at least we can keep the railway open. So, we are thinking about that in advance.
[104] We talked about flooding, which is a serious issue for us. It is one of those legacy outcomes in that the Victorians built a railway that was fit and suitable for the weather patterns that they had in those days. However, the reality is that we are struggling with it. These one in 30 years, one in 50 years or one in 100 years events are now happening once a month and it is difficult for us to keep up. So, last week, I allocated £2.4 million of additional money for this calendar year and up to the end of March 2014 to address sites of flooding that we have seen over the past five months. In CP5 for the 2014 to 2019 plan, we are allocating £2 million per annum to deal with flooding issues and to make the network more resilient so that we are not affected by floods going forward.
[105] Nick Ramsay: Thank you. I am going to move things on. Joyce Watson, did you have a very brief supplementary question before I bring Eluned Parrott in?
[106] Joyce Watson: Yes. If you are going to speed up routes, obviously you will change the timetable. If you change the timetable, do you feed that information to other transport operators?
[107] Mr Langman: Yes. We work quite closely on the development of the timetable with the train operators, as you might imagine. We need to ensure that we address the needs of the passengers and what they want to see in the timetable. We mentioned Swansea earlier; people want to arrive at Swansea station at a time that is suitable for them in order to get into the office at 8.30 a.m. or 9.00 a.m.. So, we need to ensure that we address those needs and get them home again at the right time in the evening. So, our timetabling information is widely available. There are many different ways to access it and the train operators make it available to all of the local bus companies. That enables them to integrate those times into their own bus timetables. There are some good examples around the UK of where there are combined rail/bus timetables for particular areas.
[108] Eluned Parrott: I wanted to ask about your relationship with train operating companies and other transport providers. One of the big recommendations in the McNulty report was devolution, which we have seen, but another was to look at how the train operating companies work with Network Rail and to encourage much greater integration between them. Could you tell us a little more about your relationship with train operating companies that are operating in Wales, not just with Arriva Trains Wales, but with the others that are also coming into Wales?
[109] Mr Langman: As you might imagine, we have always had a very close working relationship by the nature of the fact that we need each other to operate. Our relationship has always been very good, but the recent devolution and creation of the Wales route has enabled us to take that step further in Wales and we have an excellent relationship with Arriva. We have progressed to identify six or seven key areas in both of our businesses that have many parallels and we think that we can work much more closely together. We are in the early days of discussing what those benefits could be, both in efficiency and output. We are looking outside of Wales to consider where deeper alliances have been formed in the industry. For example, there is a deep alliance, as it is called, between South West Trains and Network Rail’s Wessex route out of Waterloo and down into Surrey and Hampshire and so on. So, we want to learn lessons from that. It has only been live for eight months, so it is early days, but it looks like there is some good stuff coming out of there and we need to quickly understand that and apply that in Wales.
[110] Similarly, I have good relationships and meet regularly with First Great Western and Virgin Trains in the north. So, relationships are good, but there is a long way to go. There are opportunities in the future, for example with the new franchise in Wales, namely the Wales and borders franchise, to take that a step further. For me, it is all about demonstrating that that will be the right thing to do, not only in the sense of integrated transport, which is what you are looking at, but also in terms of making industry more efficient and of providing a service at less cost to the taxpayer and to fare payers.
[111] Eluned Parrott: Obviously, the potential for a deep relationship with Arriva Trains Wales is much greater than the potential for you to develop a deep relationship with some of the other train operating companies. Do you foresee any potential issues arising from deep alliances between Virgin Trains, for example, and Network Rail or First Great Western in one of the other regional areas?
[112] Mr Langman: No, I do not think so. I described earlier the alliance between South West Trains and Network Rail in relation to the Wessex route. It is not just South West Trains that operates there; CrossCountry runs there and other operators cross into that territory. I do not think that there has been any detrimental impact as a result of that. In fact, those operators have supported the deep alliance because it brings more efficiency and more benefits for them. We are quite mature, as an industry, in terms of our relationships with various parties. Ultimately, we are all here because we want to run a good railway and we want to do the right thing.
[113] Eluned Parrott: How about the relationships between you and other forms of transport provider? I am sure that you consult significantly when you are making long-term planned changes to the timetable, but to what extent are you able to negotiate on things like short-term planned changes to deal with the signalling works that are taking place and any necessary changes to the timetable? Obviously, over the next control period, that will be incredibly important. How good are the relationships when you are looking at unplanned changes?
[114] Mr Langman: Those shorter term projects are under way now, namely the signalling schemes that I have talked about, such as those on the north Wales coast line and those between Newport and Shrewsbury, and the Valleys line electrification. Stakeholder consultation groups have been set up, on which there are many different bodies represented, not necessarily every single bus company, but the umbrella groups and the transport consortia are represented on them. The reality is that we could have a stakeholder group of hundreds of people if we tried to negotiate with everyone; so, I look for umbrella groups like the transport consortia to create a co-ordinating body so that we can make sure that we integrate at a level that is regional, rather than try to consult with every single individual at every single station. That would make it quite tough for us.
[115] Eluned Parrott: Links are very important, but how does it work on the coalface? When the dirt hits the fan and you are having one of those days when there is something like a signalling problem, how well do the people in the control room liaise with people, for example, in the bus networks to work out how they work together?
[116] Nick Ramsay: Perhaps I could ask you to be succinct in answering that question.
[117] Mr Langman: It works well, but it could probably work better. When something breaks, and there is a big problem, for example, in the Cardiff area with flooding, I know that Arriva Trains Wales will talk to Newport Bus and Cardiff Bus about accepting rail tickets on their buses without question between Newport and Cardiff, for instance.
[118] Nick Ramsay: Finally, I call on Joyce Watson.
[119] Joyce Watson: I want to discuss the future of the Wales and borders franchise and your priorities. Could you identify what those priorities are to 2018?
[120] Mr Langman: We have not had detailed discussions about that. I know that it is currently being debated in your Chamber and elsewhere. We are keen to understand what the future franchise will look like and we would want to be heavily involved in that development. We will support the Welsh Government in its considerations on the new franchise. I think that we need to look at the lessons that are being learned from the alliances around the country. We have a role to play in identifying where we think we could be more efficient by working closely with that franchise in the future on whatever key element that may be. However, these are early days.
[121] Joyce Watson: Do you think that a not-for-dividend Wales and borders rail franchise would permit a closer, more productive alliance with Network Rail?
[122] Mr Langman: We are already a not-for-dividend organisation. While I am not necessarily saying that that is the best model, we seem to have achieved quite a lot for a devolved Wales route. I will be keen on whatever model will bring the biggest investment into the railway. I am a railway man at heart and I want to see the railway succeed and lots of money going into it. That is why I am really excited about the electrifications and our own modernisation plan that we have been able to bring to bear.
[123] Joyce Watson: That is a very diplomatic answer.
[124] What are the implications, which have been much discussed, of the proposed all-Wales transport entitlement card for Network Rail and the Welsh Government’s reported position that it cannot be extended to rail until the new franchise is awarded?
[125] Mr Langman: I think that that is a discussion between the train operator and the Government. We have not been involved in that discussion. We do not provide the infrastructure for ticketing.
[126] Nick Ramsay: That is great. Thank you. You have actually stayed an extra nine minutes, so I thank you for your co-operation. There were many questions from the committee. I thank Mark Langman and Dylan Bowen of Network Rail for coming today and being extremely helpful. You gave us a lot of food for thought, as well as our visit to the Canton control centre, so we have a lot of information to feed into our inquiry. Thank you very much for all your help today.
[127] Mr Langman: It has been my pleasure; you are always welcome anywhere on the railway if you want to visit.
[128] David Rees: It is not a question—[Inaudible.]—I have tried accessing it on the web, but I have had some difficulty, because it is in bits and pieces. If you could send copies, it would be helpful and I would be grateful.
[129] Mr Langman: Yes, I am happy to do that. The strategic business plan, which was announced nationally on Tuesday, for your information—I will not bore you with too much detail—equates to 20,000 pages of information that we have submitted to the Office of Rail Regulation. You will not want that. We have a rather nice Wales route summary plan of about 80 pages.
[130] Nick Ramsay: We do not have any time left in this meeting for 20,000 pages, but maybe on a rainy day. Thank you for being with us today.
[131] Mr Bowen: We are happy to answer any questions that might come up afterwards as well. You can drop me a line and I will do my best to get in touch.
[132] Nick Ramsay: We will do that. May I advise the committee that the Passenger Transport Executive Group evidence session has now been rescheduled for 7 February? With that, I bring this session of the Enterprise and Business Committee to a close.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 10.26 a.m.
The meeting ended at 10.26 a.m.